Thursday, April 07, 2005
Where are all you NION asshats?!?
"Not In Our Name”, eh? Damned straight.
We freed 26 million people from one of the most oppressive governments on the planet. You didn’t have a gottdamned thing to do with it.
Not In Your Name were they freed. And not by your efforts will they remain free.
So you turned to cheering on the alleged “Iraqi Insurgents”, calling them ‘Minutemen’, and hoping for thousands of American deaths, so that we would be suitably chastened and run for home with our tail between our legs. You posted gleeful listings of outrageously over-inflated claims of civilian deaths, blaming each of them on the American military (including one guy whose cause of death was listed as “pneumonia").
But once we invaded - taking the whole country faster than Janet Reno took a compound in Waco - we had set forces in play that could not be called back. The Afghanis had managed to come up with a stable form of government with no real problems, and they managed to set elections and elect leaders, all without American interference. (Something you never hear from the feminists is that the first person to vote in those Afghani elections was a woman, and this in a country where women weren’t even allowed to learn to read until we kicked the Taliban out! No, they’re too busy hating Bush.)
But once we took Saddam out, and installed a CPA to oversee repairs and restoration, the NION crowd (ably aided by the MSM and liberal bloggers) were forced to start trying to scare us away with scenes of horror as the terrorists “insurgents” started bombing the locals, and videotaping and broadcasting ritual beheadings of captured innocents, and the media - ever eager to punish Bush for not listening to them - aired the most sympathetic views they could, while the liberal bloggers called the victims of these atrocities “mercenaries”, and concluded “Fuck ‘em.”
Accusations of human rights abuses were leveled against anyone who so much as looked harshly at a terrorist innocent Iraqi - never mind pointing at them while they were naked. (According to many of you NION units, being forced to wear panties on their heads is somehow worse than having that head sawed off with a steak knife. I wonder how many of you would have screamed if we had just sawed a few heads off ourselves. We didn’t. You bitched anyway.)
Cries of “quagmire” and oft-repeated references to the last time you won a major victory ("Viet-" something or other) showed your hope that we would go in and run away again, like the bully you make America out to be. That Q-word was literally used within 48 hours of the first boots on the ground in Iraq.
In the two years since the statue of Saddam was toppled, all manner of accusation, allegation and assertion were levelled against Bush, his Cabinet officials, and anyone who dared to support Coalition action (including calling the largest coalition in all of History “unilateral American Imperialism"). Accusations of torture, cold-blooded murder, and more, all in the attempt to shift the tide of public opinion to where it was in the early 70s, when the Government wasn’t trusted, the military was demoralized, body bags got primetime airplay, and slimebags who betrayed their country ended up running for office. (Even winning in a few cases.)
What wasn’t noticed is the slow grind of events. People see their lights come on for the first time in months, food is plentiful, kids are going to school, and the citizens see that the soldiers are real people with an eagerness to help defend them against the terrorists “insurgents” instead of being baby-eating robots with movie-style weapons.
All that was Not In Your Name.
The election held earlier this year was also Not In Your Name. Screams of rage and cries of “illegitimate” resounded as Iraqis waved their purple fingers in the air, dancing and cheering in the streets, and, in one impressive incident, an Iraqi who had been wounded in an attempted terrorist strike “insurgent attack” refused medical treatment until he had gotten a chance to vote.
Your gleeful cheers welcomed the standard confusion attendant upon starting a new form of government from scratch, with a few hoping that the Iraqis would turn to a theocracy, just so that they can point their fingers and say, “We told you so!”.
Well, folks, yesterday the Iraqi Interim government appointed a Kurdish man, Jalal Talabani, as their President. He was the first ethnic Arab to be appointed to such a powerful position in the whole Arab world.
Today, they have appointed the Prime Minister, Ibrahim al-Jaafari (a Shiite). They have a freely-elected government in place in two years from a standing start. Two years!! It took the US almost three times that long, but that wasn’t good enough for you, was it?
Well, suck it up, boyo, because a free Iraq is here - a proven reality. The next step is an Iraqi Constitution. And that will be done Not In Your Name, either. You will have had absolutely nothing to do with any of it. Your preferences were made perfectly clear. So stew in your impotence, and remember that when the invitations to the party show up, none of them will be In Your Name.
UPDATE: It has been pointed out (by Pat Meebles over in this Moorewatch trackback) that I neglected to include that a Sunni was named as the new Vice President, which is yet another cold splash of reality for those who were howling about how the Sunnis were going to be “oppressed” in the new government. Mea culpa and thanks for the correction, Pat!
Comments
Well, we know what is “not in their names.”
Using the process of elimination, here is what WAS in their names:
Saddam, mass graves, women treated as less than animals, dictatorships, chemical attacks on Kurds, “little Eichmans,” fake “documentaries” about 9/11, etc., etc.
It must be so very frustrating to always be on the wrong side of history.
Beautiful Drum. I can’t wait till these people start trying to give themselves credit for all of this.
Well said Drumwaster. Props to Pres. Bush and an ongoing job well-done to the men and women of the armed forces who have heart and soul.
Amen to that.
Although, it’s not the largest coalition in all of history, I believe the WWII Allies were slightly larger country-wise. But yeah - other than that, it’s quite possibly the best summary of the failures and inaccuracies in the anti-war movement. Congratulations.
Very well said and pointed at the right people, Drummy.
Talabani isn’t an Arab, Drum - that’s what makes his selection so significant. He’s the first non-Arab president of an Arab country.
Rubbing salt into the anti-liberation wound. Good post on how to reduce the less idiotic NION tools to immoral rubble.
Just like they now deny Reagan, Tatcher, and John Paul II are really the ones that brought the Soviet Empire down - they give Micahel Gorbachev the credit when all he did was not to strike out at the world and cause a nuclear holocaust when it became clear his side had lost - they will find a way a few decades from now to five the credit to the UN or some other libtard organization that had nothing to do with it.
DRUMWASTER’S RANTS
RE: where are all you nion asshats?
I figured you guys would benefit from at least ONE actual voice from the crowd that opposed the war in Iraq. Before you hurt yourselves patting each other on the back, I have four words for all of you: WEAPONs OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Its disturbing the way that conservatives have tried to re-write history as far as this invasion is concerned. At the time the invasion was being sold, it was supposed to be a defensive mission to head off an imminent attack. We opposed the war for the simple reasons that 1) they never made a convincing case that the WMDs existed in the first place, 2) they never made a convincing case that there was any threat of an imminent attack, and 3) because we didn’t believe the Pentagon’s rosey picture of how the war and occupation was going to go. Don’t forget, various talking heads told us that there are WMDs, that Iraq would not need much monetary support from the US, that we wouldn’t need to stay there very long, that there would be very few civilian casualties, and they talked about it as if there would be no insurgency at all.
After the decision to go to war was made, and especially since they have realised that WE WERE RIGHT about there being no WMDs, there was a major effort to “change the channel” so to speak, and make it seem that this war was only about freedom, which it was not. This election is good, it means that maybe something good can be salvaged out of this horrible mess, but we will never forget that this war was billed as a pre-emptive strike on a country that was supposedly about to attack us, and no amount of spin doctoring can change that.
A few other things:
If you want to know how anti-war people think, I suggest you ask an anti-war person, not a conservative pundit. Outside of a handfull of extremists, we were not “gleeful” when our relatives, friends, and neighbors were getting killed. Has it ever occured to you that maybe we were against the war because we were afraid that just such a situation would result from this?
Also, I hope you’re not ignorant enough to believe that the abuses of Iraqis consisted only of pointing at them. Iraqi civilians have been tortured and murdered in US custody. It is a fact. Wheres your outcry about that?
Oh yeah. Asshat? Thats the dumbest attempt at an insult Ive ever heard. -A
1) they never made a convincing case that the WMDs existed in the first place,
You mean besides the fact that Saddam had compiled a fairly comprehensive list, including:
Here is what was known by 1998 based on Iraq’s own admissions:
* That in the years immediately prior to the first Gulf War, Iraq produced at least 3.9 tons of VX, a deadly nerve gas, and acquired 805 tons of precursor ingredients for the production of more VX.
* That Iraq had produced or imported some 4,000 tons of ingredients to produce other types of poison gas.
* That Iraq had produced 8,500 liters of anthrax.
* That Iraq had produced 500 bombs fitted with parachutes for the purpose of delivering poison gas or germ payloads.
* That Iraq had produced 550 artillery shells filled with mustard gas.
* That Iraq had produced or imported 107,500 casings for chemical weapons.
* That Iraq had produced at least 157 aerial bombs filled with germ agents.
* That Iraq had produced 25 missile warheads containing germ agents (anthrax, aflatoxin, and botulinum).
Again, this list of weapons of mass destruction is not what the Iraqi government was suspected of producing. (That would be a longer list, including an Iraqi nuclear program that the German intelligence service had concluded in 2001 might produce a bomb within three years.) It was what the Iraqis admitted producing.
2) they never made a convincing case that there was any threat of an imminent attack,
On the contrary, Bush Admin officials made it clear that they were acting to prevent Iraq from becoming an imminent threat. You remember, “a gun doesn’t smoke until after it’s been fired”? And I’ll bet Afghanistan wasn’t considered an “imminent threat” on September 10th. Does that mean we should wait to respond until Saddam had developed those WMD (that EVERY GOVERNMENT ON THE PLANET AGREED he was developing)? Do you wait until your mugger has set down his pistol, and has assembled a flame thrower, before you decide that he should be stopped?
3) because we didn’t believe the Pentagon’s rosey picture of how the war and occupation was going to go.
While I deplore the losses we suffer, and mourn for those familes, you haven’t yet caught on to the fact that we have lost fewer men for the benefits accrued than during any other military action in all of history. Less than 2,000 troops, in exchange for 50 million freed. We lost 200 times that many freeing Europe against a clearly identifiable enemy.
How many people have been freed by appeasement?
Oh yeah. Asshat? Thats the dumbest attempt at an insult Ive ever heard.
Well, then let me try again:
Congratulations! You have just proved the theory that there is no limit to human stupidity. Dullard, do yourself and everyone else a favor: disconnect your computer from the Internet.
It’s just as well you can type, for if you had to speak your mind, you’d be speechless. You must have a very large brain to hold such a vast amount of sheer ignorance. However, I’ll consider letting you have the last word if you guarantee it will be your last. I suggest you need Mark Twain’s advice; “It is better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.”
You light up a room when you leave it. No doubt your life is so dull, that you can actually write your diary one week in advance. Looking at you, Darwin would NOT be pleased to see how inefficiently evolution sometimes works. Maybe you wouldn’t come across as such a jellyfish-sucking mental midget if didn’t lack even the dim flicker of sentience needed to qualify as a imbecile; if your weren’t so fat that your cereal bowl has its own lifeguard, or if you didn’t have a face like a bulldog chewing a stinging nettle while taking a constipated dump in a heat wave. No, come to think of it, you would.
In future, if you have something to say, just shut up. 
yeah, asshat is a pretty good one, but i’m also fond of nutjob, libtard and my very favorite - moonbat. i know, it’s ridiculous, they’re made up 6-year old insults - might as well call us big stupid dummyheads.
ans5492 - while I do truly appreciate people like you, lone voices of reason in the midst of madness, i also have a message for you learned from painful experience. these people do NOT get it, and no amount of arguing and presenting them with gleaming piles of shining logic will deter them in their violence and insanity. i’ve stop trying to convert the non-convertible into the ways of peace, truth and reason - it just can’t seem to be done. my solution? to do what i can in peaceful protest and mostly just pray for peace. history will show this as a time of great darkness and madness, a time when a president speaks in a seemingly heartfelt way about the death of the same pope who spoke out so fervently against his actions, it will show this person as a greedy, deceitful and massively destructive mass-murderer of epic scale. i think a lot of people will feel bad when they wake up, but for now, they are very deeply asleep - i encourage you, like me, to pray for them and for peace.
and please ignore those who try and tear everything i’ve said apart like they did with you - it’s just ignorance to the ways of peace and love and compassion - i recommend them to watch the movie gandhi a few dozen times. i do sincerely have faith they will even come around as they don’t know they’re walking in shadows - watch them fight for it and cling to it so desperately - peace…
OK, now that trading insults is out of the way, lets get down to the issue at hand: The weapons.
What you have given is evidence that Iraq had weapons at one time. That is not in dispute. The problem is that many people who want to justify the invasion like to skip around the timeline. Basically, Iraq had weapons, and after the first Gulf War, UN inspectors were given the job of tracking them all down, and seeing to their destruction.
The American head of the UN inspection team said,
“As of December 1998 we had accounted for 90 to 95 percent of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction capability—“we” being the weapons inspectors. We destroyed all the factories, all of the means of production and we couldn’t account for some of the weaponry, but chemical weapons have a shelf-life of five years. Biological weapons have a shelf-life of three years. To have weapons today, they would have had to rebuild the factories and start the process of producing these weapons since December 1998.”
Since weapons inspectors were pulled out in ‘98, the issue is what Iraq had been up to during the period of time: 1998- until the invasion began. The evidence that we had was spotty at best. I agree that we needed to find out. That is an airtight case for sending UN inspectors back into Iraq, which was done. This long term strategy is called containment, not appeasment, which now appears to have been successful, considering the fact that no weapons were found there. However, before the inspector’s work was finished, Bush started the invasion. Basically, he decided, and you seem to agree, that a vague suspicion of a threat, without solid evidence of any kind is reason enough to go to war.
As the american head of the UN inspectors 91-98 said:
“the Bush administration provides only speculation, failing to detail any factually based information to bolster its claims concerning Iraq’s continued possession of or ongoing efforts to acquire weapons of mass destruction. To date no one has held the Bush administration accountable for its unwillingness - or inability - to provide such evidence...This only reinforces the fact that the case for war against Iraq fails to meet the litmus test for the defense of our national existence so eloquently phrased by President Lincoln.
War should never be undertaken lightly. Our nation’s founders recognized this when they penned our Constitution, giving the authority to declare war to Congress and not to the president. Yet on the issue of war with Iraq, Congress remains disturbingly mute.”
You use the example of a mugger to justify this, but I have to ask you, do you go down the street randomly shooting people in the head because you have a vague suspicion that they might be thinking about mugging you? Thats the problem with this whole line of reasoning. What if you’re wrong? That is the lesson of Iraq. Bush was not pressed to come up with real evidence, people trusted him that he had a good reason. That mistake leaves us in our current situation: Spending billions of dollars and thousands of lives with no end in sight, all to try to fix up a country that was not the imminent threat they said it was.
The thing that really bothers me about all this is that people who think like you threaten to undo all of the work that so many Americans have done over most of the last century : to create a world of mutual security, where no one nation can start arbitrarily attacking other nations based on nothing but vague suspicion and paranoia. I wouldnt, and I suspect that neither would you, accept India and Pakistan going to war because they think that maybe the other is about to invade, without any real evidence, so why would I want my country doing the same thing?
George Bush SR. understood this, and the consequences of invasion when he wrote:
“Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs… we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations’ mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.”
So you think that it has all been worth it? That puts you in the minority in this country, according to the polls, and its far from over yet. But Im curious. Are you a member of the military? If not, why? Would you be willing to give you’re own life for this mission?
- A
You need to Enter Reality!
Yes, Saddam Hussien was a bad guy, no one can deny that…
But how did Saddam get where he is?
Saddam Hussien’s Party, the Baathists, were installed in a Coup by the CIA. Why? Because the people of Iraq DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED someone named Qassim, who the U.S. didn’t like. The U.S. installed the Baathist Party in Iraq, and on the first day gave the Baathists the lists of Iraqi Communists and Leftists to have murdered! So the Baathist rounded leftists up and had the shot, with the help of the CIA.
The USA gave saddam all kinds of aid when he was killing his own people. We supplied him with the WMDs he used on his own people. The U.S. cheered him on while he was gassing his own People. Donald Rumsfeld even shook hands with Saddam Hussien…
but then, all the sudden, Saddam turned into a bad guy… not really… he’d been a bad guy all along… but suddenly he NATIONALIZED HIS OIL INDUSTRY and SUPPORTED THE SOVIETS rather than the USA, then he became “Hitler” and shit like that…
Well… the big U.S. corporations couldn’t afford to loose any more money by not having control of the oil industry, so we got a decade of sanctions against the people of Iraq. The U.S. STARVED 1.2 MILLION PEOPLE, including 500,000 CHILDREN! According to Bush sr. this was so the people of Iraq would understand that WHAT WE SAY GOES! That’s a direct quote. WHAT WE SAY GOES! Think about that?
Clinton and the Democrats went along with the sanctions as well, and finally after decades of sanctions, Bush jr. decides it’s time to invade so he kills another 100,000 Iraqis.
You need to enter reality! The U.S. Forgeign policy has nothing to do with “Democracy”. It’s about profit. The U.S. has supported the most awful dictators in history, including the Shah or Iran and Pinochet to name a few.
You need to enter reality and stop just being a mouthpiece for the rulers of this country.
The U.S. government, both parties, the dems and the reps, are parties of the RULING CLASS… not the people…
You probably think “Hate America!” or some other lame conservative way of dealing with what I am saying.
I love the people of America! I love this country and it’s people! I hate the reactionary government and it’s ruling class, I a want a society where there is REAL freedom!
I hate U.S. Imperialism!
I wonder how long before you delete this post?
That is an airtight case for sending UN inspectors back into Iraq, which was done.
And those inspectors concluded, to a man, that Iraq was not obeying the terms of the UNSC Resolutions, including the last one, which promised “serious consequences”.
What exactly do you think “serious consequences” could possibly have meant? 
This long term strategy is called containment, not appeasment, which now appears to have been successful, considering the fact that no weapons were found there.
And the UN deciding that he had merely shipped them to Syria? Or the NYTimes report that those weapons had been stolen in the days following the invasion? Or why exactly did Iraq need more than 100 years worth of pesticides (only the slightest of difference between pesticide and nerve agent, btw) buried on a military ammo dump, right next to thousands of empty chemical weapons mortar shells? Did that not get factored into your “reality”?
It also seems odd that Saddam’s army had the latest in Chem warfare suits, but not enough ammunition for their guns. At least it would to a sentient person, which might explain why you hadn’t gotten that far.
So you think that it has all been worth it?
You bet your ass.
That puts you in the minority in this country, according to the polls, and its far from over yet.
Actually, it puts me in the 51% that approved of Bush’s actions. 51% is a majority everywhere but between a Donk’s ears.
But Im curious. Are you a member of the military?
No.
If not, why?
Because I’ve already given them ten years of my life. Enlisted willingly, promoted regularly, and discharged Honorably, with multiple medals.
Would you be willing to give you’re own life for this mission?
If I were still in, had been ordered to serve in Iraq, and circumstances turned out that way, I would not regret it.
How about you? Have you served? Are you serving now? If not, why not? Don’t you think your own freedom is worth a little extra effort on your part, or are you just going to be a parasite your whole life while your betters make sure that the boogeyman isn’t gonna bite you in your sleep? 
I wonder how long before you delete this post?
Why should I do that? Your sheer stupidity is almost amusing.
Like I said before, arguing back and forth is beyond pointless - NO ONE who feels as strongly as the people who post on boards such as these is about to make a 180 and completely change their views. The violent conservatives will argue to their deaths that Bush is not a mass-murderer and that this war is justified, and the peaceful liberals like myself know that killing is wrong without an extremely compelling reason - of course the conservatives think they have that, but of course the liberals know we were nowhere close to justify the murdering of tens and tens of thousands of people. I really have given up on trying to convert these people. All I can do is say my peace, perhaps introduce them to a different way, to a world where peace, respect, love, dignity and humanity could rule, and hope that the seeds of peace one day grow. God bless you all.
Yet you “peaceful liberals” don’t mind Saddam killing more than a million Iranians and Iraqis, do you? What “extremely compelling reason” did he have to kill those million? Or Joseph Stalin to kill his 40 million? Or Mao to kill his tens of millions?
Or was that just to make sure that everything stayed “peaceful”?
Speaking of which, have you served? Or are you a parasite, too?
God bless you Drumwaster. Don’t you know that killing is wrong and there is no justification for it no matter what? So far we’ve killed over 100,000 Iraqi’s, so, as long as we don’t get to 1,000,000 we’re cool? Let’s see, so figure out how many people Hussein would have killed in projected figures in the last 2 years. If the numbers we’ve killed are less, are we then heroes? This is just pure madness plain and simple.
I have served. I have served humanity as a minister. Going out as a trained killer is not service to humanity.
From the Old Testament: “Thou Shalt Not Kill.”
From the New Testaent: “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: / But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
From Mahatma Gandhi: “An eye for an eye would make the whole world blind.”
From Pope John Paul II: “When war threatens humanity’s destiny, as it does today in Iraq, it is even more urgent for us to proclaim with a loud and decisive voice that peace is the only way to build a more just and caring society. Violence and arms can never solve human problems.”
There is no justification for war and killing. My mother taught me that from a very young age and I foolishly assumed this was common sense that most of the world believed in, but just because much of the world is still in a deep slumber does not make it right. How will these people ever get the blood off their hands?
So far we’ve killed over 100,000 Iraqi’s,
You’re full of shit, too. The numbers claimed at IBC (which is the only place outside of the DU where that number is being bandied about as though it were true) have been so thoroughly discredited (such as the one elderly gentleman who died of pneumonia - I believe I mentioned him above) as to have less credibility than Clinton saying “I did not have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.”
For further instance, some of those 100,000 include the victims of a terrorist bombing of a mosque. America had nothing to do with it, only involved with the rescue and medical assistance, yet useful idiots like yourself lay those deaths at the feet of America in the hopes that you can scare us away from the mission we have undertaken.
That would be like blaming you for a traffic death three states away, simply because you bought gas at the same chain they did.
From the Old Testament: “Thou Shalt Not Kill.”
Actually, it reads, “Thou Shalt Not Murder”, which has a much different connotation. Look a little later on in that same book, and the line is “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and a life for a life”.
There is no justification for war and killing.
Take that logic all the way to the end, and there is no justification for the police (since they are “fighting crime”, using force to protect the weaker members of society against those who are nothing more that human predators). That is a war on a personal basis, trying to protect a larger society.
I have served. I have served humanity as a minister.
So that’s a “No”. Enjoying your freedom, are you? How was that freedom purchased? How is it maintained?
We live in a world where not everyone shares your (inconsistent) ideals. Some people are pure evil. look at the world around you - Kim Jong Il, Saddam, Idi Amin, Joseph Stalin, Adolf, etc. These men have dedicated their lives to the utter oppression of their citizens, using force against them for some personal urge to control things.
Your “method of diplomacy” would be to pray for them? How nice for their neighbors. And what is left of their citizenry - is rape, torture, mass murder, just peachy keen as long as you don’t have to do anything?
Because that doesn’t make you morally superior. It makes you a coward who will not stand for anything. And, as shown in what you write, a man who will not stand for anything will fall for everything.
I foolishly assumed this was common sense that most of the world believed in
You still do. Reality isn’t that naive. And you are clearly an idiot who doesn’t think that others deserve the same freedom you enjoy.
Like I said, there is no point in trying to change these people as they seem very happy (angry?) in their beliefs. God bless them, evenutally they will see the light. Go you own way and be at peace…
Does that mean you’re going to go away again? 
Drum,
Please stop using logic with ideology driven liberals. It never works. Remember that to a liberal facts don’t matter. What matters is intention. If a liberla does something with good intentions and it backfires and causes huge harm, it is still a success. On the other hand, anyone pointing out their idea is idiotic deserves scorn and hate for being such a meany. Nothing should be allowed to get in the way of their desire to achieve that socialist Utopia where everyone is just as mediocre and morally bankrupt as the next person.
How do you arue with morons that believe America is evil because it is successful? In fact the very foundation ofe every argument these retards make underscores their refusal to acknowledge and understand our success is directly tied to the freedoms and securities we where granted by our forefathers. The same freedoms and securities that are missing - because some dictator, socialist/communist monster prefers to oppress and exploit his people - in every other shithole in the world. And facts that prove they are idiots, like the fall of the USSR and what is playing out in the Middle East right now, be damned.
Spare yourself the agrivation and ignore these morons that are always preaching about how they are enlightened because they believe in peace and equality (read socialism or communism) when the forget that absence of war peace does not make. In fact peace is only guaranteed when good men have stood up and faught evil.
A little copy and paste;
“...the Iraqi regime stage-managed a “humanitarian catastrophe” while at the same time using oil-for-food supplies to rebuild its battered military. In particular, it routinely diverted thousands of trucks, four-wheel drive vehicles and pick-ups to its armed forces and intelligence agencies”
“ ...Unicef, the UN’s children’s agency. This was the organisation that had produced the much-quoted but highly controversial estimate that 500,000 Iraqi children had died because of sanctions, a figure based partly on an extrapolation of statistics provided by Saddam’s own health ministry.”
( From Philip Sherwell-Telegraph.com uk )
Saddam’s own health ministry???
The fox counting the chickens while stealing billions ( yes more money than Enron by far )
while buying silence from Koffi Annan’s son and many other UN people.
Another little known FACT; about 48 of Saddam’s fifthy-something decadently luxurious palaces were built DURING that time, so we know why some children suffered ( but not 500,000 ) and it is not because of the US , but because of Saddam , the corrupt UN and a few willing accomplices like France and Russia who were assured contracts by Saddam.( some of those contracts - oil related - but I guess that is OK as long as they are not americans, eh Lefties ?...)
And if it is wrong for the USA to go to war to ensure it’s access to oil ( if that is even partially true ) , then why is it not wrong for Saddam to go to war and invade Koweit for oil?
No lefty ever complained about that sort of war for oil…
Hey Drum,
Sorry to say, but I got a major beef with you.
First off, I’d like to say that I agree with your assertations 100%. Moonbats believe that all Republicans are the epitome of evil, and the sky won’t turn blue until about 40 secinds after a Dem becomes president again.
But here’s the problem....
You say you served 10 years in the service. I am DAMN proud of you! It’s people like you who keep people like me safe, and I’ll go to the grave thinking that.
But whats with the “you-didn’t-serve-so-your-opinion-isn’t-worth-crap-case?” I don’t know if a proud and humble soldier would ever accused someone of being a parasite based solely on the fact that they didn’t serve.
If you walked into the local bar and saw two people arguing whether Willie Mays or Babe Ruth was a better baseball player, would you tell them their opinion don’t mean dick because the arguers were never in the majors?
I’m not a cook, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know bad food....
And Ted Kennedy is an asshole…
The point I was making is that they are asking whether I would be willing to risk my life serving in Iraq.
So I answered and turned the question around. So many libtards are willing to use the “chickenhawk” label to mean anyone who supports the war, yet has never served. I never said that they didn’t have their right to an opinion. I just pointed out that I am under no obligation to tolerate and endorse that ill-informed opinion.
One other thing, if I may: there is a hell of a lot of difference between serving in the military and taste-testing a meal. And if you heard the two baseball fans talking about which of the two was the better baseball player based on their ‘free throw percentages’ and ‘touchdowns per quarter’, would you argue that their opinion was worth as much as, say, your average Little League player?
Many of them say “I don’t like what they’re doing, but I support the troops.” Others put conditions on that support. They’re both full of shit.
If you were offended, please accept my assurances that it was not you I was trying to offend.
I find it fascinating that you deleted the last post from democracyforever who asked me to post this since you not only deleted it but banned him from the board.
You’re a fucking liar. I didn’t ban him.
Unlike you, he didn’t insult you, just tried to give you and your readers an alternative point of view on things - all I can say is it must have REALLY hit a nerve.
I didn’t insult him, either.
What were you afraid people might read - the truth?
There’s no fear of a liberal speaking truth here. It’s just that I’ve never seen it happen yet.
I thought you would have had more courage than that and let people make up their own minds - I guess it hit a little too close to home there and obviously even though you won’t give anyone else the opportunity to read it, I can only assume it really did make you think.
I never deleted anything, and I have no idea what you’re bitching about. The only one here not thinking is you. (And your alleged “friend”.)
God knows you’ll probably delete this post too, or worse, keep it, but then again, if you do, everyone will know you deleted a thought provoking heartfelt intelligent post from someone who happens to have a different point of view from most of the people on this board, who certatinly like to spend a lot of time doing nothing but agreeing with each other.
You mean like at DU, where they ban you for deviating in the slightest from the Donk love-fest? I never deleted anything.
If I was a conservative and I knew you dumped a post that had something real and challengeing to say, I would be upset, but I don’t know, maybe conservatives think differnet than us liberals
You missed a comma. That should read: “maybe conservatives think, different than us liberals”
- maybe they enjoy just dumping any intelligent anything that’s contrary to what they believe in when it’s too incisive and makes them think that they may be operating under an incorrect premise.
You mean the premise you are espousing of “Everything is America’s fault”?
I really thought you had more guts than that. Oh well - peace, bro…
Yeah, if I deleted opposing points of view, this would have been one. But I didn’t. Maybe your “friend” lied to you. (He certainly lies to himself.)
Even though I’m new here, and don’t know what may have happened here in the past to cause Drumwaster to ban someone, maybe I can answer some of democracynow comments;
“...people on this board, who certatinly like to spend a lot of time doing nothing but agreeing with each other.”
Have you visited a liberal blog lately?
I have, and I don’t see any difference; like minded people tend to agree with each other…
“...were you afraid people might read - the truth? “
The truth is, both sides claim they hold the truth!
Besides, the “left truth” is in the main media day in day out, so we’re pretty used to it.
And to answer some of democracyforever’s comments about peace;
You say that people on blogs like this one will not do a 180 on their views.
Again, how do liberals differ ?
A minister talking about peace in the middle east or in north korea - if he was even allowed to enter the country - would be beaten up ,tortured, put in jail and maybe executed.
But as you say the violent ones are the conservatives in america.
And about the “ eye for an eye” Gandhi thing, it sounds really impressive, but if it were true don’t you think all of humanity would have gone blind thousands of years ago, because as a lot of liberals seem to forget, war was not created recently in the White house or the Pentagon…
I could go on and on and as you can see I’m not just agreeing…
You served. Good. The reason why I ask is because, in my experience, many people who are the biggest sabre-rattlers are also not members of the military, even though they are of age, and the military needs the extra bodies. This seems hypocritical, but since you are not one of these, end of story.
To answer your question, no I am not a member of the military myself, but then why would someone who has no faith in our commannder in chief to only go to war when it is absolutely neccesary want to join up? I come from a long line of men who served, but there is no way that I would join now, simply because I believe that the war in Iraq was just a bait and switch. I feel that it is very important to put your money where your mouth is, which is why I have dedicated myself to the anti-war movement. End of story.
By the way, the minority I was referring to is the minority that says that the war in Iraq was worth the cost. Last time I looked, over 50% of those americans polled said that it was not. (53%) Also 70% said the the war was racking up “unacceptable losses”.
Also, as far as I can tell, you disagree with all the people and commissions that concluded that they were simply wrong about WMDs. I guess if even your own fellow Republicans can’t convince you, then maybe nobody can.
Finally, I accept that our two sides will probably never agree, but its really getting annoying the way people try to use the two wrongs make a right argument to justify anything. That is, because Saddam and co. were pieces of shit, and because other countries are indeed much worse than the US, then that somehow erases anything that the US has ever done wrong, and puts us above criticism. As seen on a bumper sticker:
“ Lord, please let us not become the evil that we deplore.”
Or something like that.. -A
I didn’t “Serve” and I’m happy I didn’t.
The only war in recent U.S. History which I would be proud of serving in would be World War Two, the rest were wars of plunder and conquest.
All this stuff about Saddam killing millions, who installed Saddam????
The CIA! Saddam was USA thug, who killed millions and your heroes Reagen and Bush sr. were funding him! They wanted him to kill millions of people and make sure that Iran didn’t overthrow the oppressive Shah which we also supported. That’s why we gave him chemical and biological weapons.
We installed him because the president of Iraq named Qassim dared to kick western imperialists from Britain out! What a crime!
The U.S. is the biggest oppressor in the world! It has overthrown democratically elected governments time and time again! The U.S. is interested in lining the pockets of it’s corporate ruling class BY ANY MEANS NECCESARY!
Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr., Carter, they are all Mass Murderers! If the laws by which the Nazis were tried at nuremberg were applied to the USA, all presidents since Roosevelt would hang! (To paraphrase Chomsky)
The U.S. is the biggest oppressor in the world! It has overthrown democratically elected governments time and time again! The U.S. is interested in lining the pockets of it’s corporate ruling class BY ANY MEANS NECCESARY!
Right Reality. And the reason the US government was forced to support the lesser of the evils during the Cold War isn’t because the Soviet Union was a far more brutal and the real evil empire working it’s plan to enslave all of humanity.
Morons like you need to be made to live in one of the se other “noble nations” you so admire to get your heads out of your asses. As someone that has lived on 5 of the 6 continents I will pick America, with all its faults. every day over every other place. Why? The rest of the world is far worse than America will ever be even when liberal idiots run it.
If said the shit you just did against any European, Latin American, or Asian nation, your ass would be handed to you by the government. Of course since you have been able to live free from any responsibility or consequences to your lunacy here in “evil” America you don’t know better. But that will not disuade you.
Now go back to spouting Marx/Lenin/Kennedy or whatever shit you lefty moron.
Each and every liberal/progressive comment here confirms what Drumwaster is saying about how you lefties feel about all the good America has brought to the middle east;
NOT IN OUR NAME
Even Iraqis have begun to write about the ridiculous “not in our name” crowd…
That’s funny. I haven’t said a thing about Socialism or Communism…
So, do you think it was right for the U.S. to install saddam and support him while he was killing all those people.
Basically you are saying it is ok to murder millions as long as it is good for the USA, but once you switch sides it is wrong.
I’ve met former members of the Iraqi Communist Party who had their entire families wiped out by the Baathists, who were paid by the USA.
You are basically saying that the slaughtering of their families because of their political beleifs was okay.
You are sick.
You conservatives be-mon the 3,043 killed on sept. 11th, but you don’t give a flying fuck about the 1.2 Million Iraqis killed by the sanctions, or the 100,000 Iraqis killed since the begining of the war, or the millions of innocent children Saddam gassed with the weapons we gave him…
oh no…
when the USA kills somebody it is just a statistic, but when Islamic Radicals strike back they are evil demons!
I don’t support Alqueda or anything, I just think you are a bunch of hypocrites!
That is the great thing about this country...every moron has the freedom to express their opinion. The Iraqi people have the ability to experience these same freedoms that we take for granted every day. Whether you believe that the reason for going into Iraq was right or wrong, nobody can deny that the Iraqi people are better off with a freely elected government, and get to experience the same freedoms that we have...so shut up already, the war was a good thing.
Some interesting things that have been said here:
This only reinforces the fact that the case for war against Iraq fails to meet the litmus test for the defense of our national existence so eloquently phrased by President Lincoln.
War should never be undertaken lightly. Our nation’s founders recognized this when they penned our Constitution, giving the authority to declare war to Congress and not to the president. Yet on the issue of war with Iraq, Congress remains disturbingly mute.”
I find it interesting that the Civil War was not originally put forward as a crusade to end slavery, but as a means to preserve the union. Later on, it became a crusade (see Gettysburg Address)
Also, the Civil War was fought without a declaration by Congress. The President waged that war. The Constitution clearly gives him the power to tell the troops whom to attack.
Also:
From the Old Testament: “Thou Shalt Not Kill.”
From the New Testaent: “Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: / But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
Also from the Old Testament:
“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” 1 Samuel 15:3 KJV
Also from the New Testament:
“And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,” Matthew 21:12 KJV This one doesn’t describe violent acts, but it is hardly an act of “turning the other cheek.”
I think it’s clear from reading the Bible that it is NOT CLEAR FROM READING THE BIBLE! Am I the only one who loves and believes the bible and sees that it isn’t that simple?
The Lord seems to want us to be peaceable, but also to do what needs to be done. We can destroy our enemies without hating them. To paraphrase one general, we can wage war without being bloodthirsty, and we would not kill our brothers if they would not try to kill us.
sidebar to all the biblical stuff:
how many of you think it’s funny that the Taliban is fundamentalist and Bush is fundamentalist?
Nice try at a moral equivalency, but when one side believes in “Live and let live” while the other is “be converted to my religion or die as an infidel”, there’s no comparison.
Je$$e Jack$on is a fundamentalist, too. Does that make him equivalent to the terrorists? (I’d always thought so, because they have the same goals, but you would disagree, yet miss the irony.) 
Bush is an idiot trying to make his daddy proud and as a Canadian, I cant believe you dumbasses re-elected him. Have any of you even SEEN F-9-11?? Oh, but of course you wouldnt believe a thing Mr. Moore has to say right? He must be wrong, he’s going against your precious Bush. Lemme guess, you thought Bowling for Colombine was all false material too?
Whatever, the “war”, if you can call it that with a straight face it was more like a hunt for oil, was totaly wrong. Sure it’s great that you wanted to help out the people of iraq by getting rid of Saddam, but it was obvious they didnt want you there, so give it up already.
And if you’re acually worried about all the young men with families who are dying over there, which I doubt you are oil has much more value, try sending them home and replacing them with all the homosexuals you kicked out of the army because they were openly gay.
and one last thing...thank god bush cant be re-elected…
and as a Canadian, I cant believe you dumbasses re-elected him.
As an American, I can’t believe you think you opinion holds any weight whatsoever.
Have any of you even SEEN F-9-11??
Yup. A lie-filled polemic, from start to finish. Have YOU seen Fahrenhype 9/11? It spells out the many lies (I think they were up to 59 provable lies from the movie, which means a new lie about every 90 seconds. Quite an accomplishment from 4F.)
He must be wrong, he’s going against your precious Bush.
His target du jour has nothing to do with him being wrong. He’d be wrong, even if it was a Democrat in the White House.
Lemme guess, you thought Bowling for Colombine was all false material too?
Betcher ass. Provably so. Hell even the TITLE was based on a lie.
The rest of your screed is typical “No war for oil!” blather found on the DU. That makes me think you might be lost.
We only speak truth here, youngster.
Come back when you can tell the difference.
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Drumwaster has a piece that everyone who opposed action in Iraq should read. It's worth a few minutes of your time. Take a look, digest what he's saying and then reply. And think how Moore portrayed the people that made it happen. Now ask yourselves: Is this someone from whom I should get ideas about how the world really is?
But if you opposed action in Iraq, it wasn't in yours. And Drumwaster has a few things you need to hear. Well, suck it up, boyo, because a free Iraq is here - a proven reality. The next step is an Iraqi Constitution. And that will be done Not In Your Name, either. You will have had absolutely nothing to do with any of it. Your preferences were made perfectly clear. So stew in your impotence, and remember that when the invitations to the party show up, none of them will be In Your Name. Read……