Friday, November 18, 2005
Live-Blogging the War Debate
Thanks to C-Span. I’ll hit on the speakers in turn, and update as quick as I can.
I pushed the two debate sessions into the ‘extended comments’ section, so if you want to read the commentary as the House members spoke, go ahead and click on the ‘Read More’ button below.
My take? The Democrats got pinched...hard. They have been talking for over a year about how ‘Bush LIED!!” and how we need to have an ‘exit strategy’. This is a purely emotional appeal, based upon the unchecked feelings of the anti-war left that has siexed the controls of the Democratic Party. So, in response to what I am going to call “heart-felt pandering” (Because I really do think that part of Murtha is simply desiring the troops not to be hurt anymore), the Republicans made them put their money where their mouths were.....and the Democrats wouldn’t do it.
They still want to use the war to bash the President, so they punted in a big way, calling this resolution an insult to Murtha and to the House as an institution.....but I seem to think that there was a lot of time given for debate, a lot of people had a chance to speak....and their votes were being put on the record. When that is the case, it is clear what the Democrat politicians did was try to avoid accouhntability to a nation that knows, inherently, that a retreat would make this another Vietnam.....and that it isn’t one now.
Remember....Murtha himself said in during his speaking at 10:35 that he doesn’t believe the good news from Iraq....he thinks that only BAD things are going on. I believe that is indicative of the entire Left...they don’t want to accept the good news because that lends weight to Bush’s plans and ideas in the War on Terror. They want nothing more than to use the WoT to bleed the Right dry. That is why they didn’t vote for this resolution, and it is proof of their intellectual dishonesty.
What I wil be interested in is the reaction of the hard Left to this....and the Sullivan reaction to this. Let’s see what happens on that front.
Well...take a read of the liveblogging, and/or my reaction, and comment freely.
UPDATE: Sullivan has come out, and has blasted Republicans for what they did. Take a look.
Joseph Crowley (D-NY): Republicans are unpatriotic and pathetic. They ignored Cindy Sheehan, and insulted Rep. Murtha.
Ginny Brown-Waite (R-FL): Nurse told me not to leave....she meant that we (USA) shouldn’t leave.
Dennis Kucinich (D-OH): NUTS. Why are the Republicans voting against their own resolution? America is sick of politicians saying one thing, then saying another! (WHAT!?)
Candice Miller (R-MICHIGAN): We are willing. Saddam have been captured. Our plan was to stay until the Iraqi are free. We are working on reestablishing the Iraqi forces. We cannot leave until they are ready, and terrorists will be impowered if we leave too early. Many who voted to support the war now oppose it. They looked at the same intel, and thought the same as the President.
Chet Edwards (D-TX): We have only had 7.8 seconds per member of Congress to debate pulling out the troops. In 1991, Speaker Foley gave every member 5 minutes, so the country was united (ed: The vote was more divided then then it was in 2005)
Rick Renzi (R-Arizona) The media has spun this wrong. People had said that the POTUS has lied. Past (Clinton) adminitration members said that there were WMD’s. We want to send the troops a message. We need to protect out troops, and make the region secure. People that say that the President had lied are lying themselves, and being disingenuous.
Rahm Emmanuel (D-IL) Senators and Representatives from both sides have come to the conclusion that we are not heading the right direction in Iraq. We should debate on how to get out with victory. (sounds like something Nixon said, doesn’t it?) We haven’t asked the questions, and we haven’t had oversight. $450 billion spent, 2000 dead in Iraq, we only have 1 Iraqi batallion to show for it? (WHAT A LIE!!) We were silent, we need to speak up. Rumsfeld lied! Our troops deserve exit.
Joe Wilson (R-SC) Two sons in the armed forces. One for a year in Iraq. All four sons in the military (!) They all know that 9-11 was the start of the war. (YES!!)
Republicans get another speaker....
Steve King (R-Iowa): No objections to Afghanistan...25 million voting freely. 25 million voting in Iraq as well. free people don’t go to war against free people. We haven’t been attacked here since the war overseas started. We have to support the mission, we can’t support troops and not support the mission.
A message from the Senate: 50th year anniversary resolution of Rosa Parks. Very good.
Cindy Biggert (R-Ill) Women in Iraq that ran for office are brave, and they do not want us to leave. Don’t leave us like you did in 1991. (GREAT POINT)
Tom Tancredo (R-COL): Look at the good we have done in Iraq! Good news about Iraq and what we have done. 55,000 trained and equipped police in Iraq. 75 radio stations, and 10 TV stations. Political debates in Iraq. I want every American home, and we grieve when Americans die in Iraq, but after the mission is completed. I am not on the best of terms with POTUS, but Dems....don’t let your hatred of the POTUS to get in the way of your duty (GREAT!)
Back to Democrats....
Walter Jones (D-NC): We shouldn’t be debating this here, but because people are beating down Murtha, we have to do this now. A person that served should have freedom of expression. If the war cannot be explained, we shouldn’t be there. (IT"S BEEN EXPLAINED!! No exit stategy...this guy is upset) Bush criticized Clinton in 1999 because of a lack of “exit strategy”. That’s Bosnia, right? Peacekeeping mission?
Each Democrat is taking over their limit. Irritating
Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-NJ) An immediate withdrawal would be a disaster. We made promises to Kuwait and Iraq and Afghanistan.
Gene Green (D-TX): This motion is only about silencing Jack Murtha. Our soldiers aren’t at fault for this the President is. This is an attack on Murtha.
Jim Gibbons (R-Nevada) Our troops watch us as we discuss these things. They listen and they are listening right now. What is the message, surrender or support? Call the vote what you want. I want the troops to know we support them.
Ron Lewis (R-KY)How do you withdrawal from the War on terror? We were attacked at the WTC, Khobar, Africa, then 9-11 and the Pentagon. The last Administration tried to ignore the war, and we were attacked.
Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD): Read names of dead from his district. What are they asking us? They want us to finish the war.
George Miller (D-CA) Murtha is an American Hero. He was doing this for the sake of the troops, and the country. He has been attacked for this. He has had his character and patriotism challenged and insulted by the POTUS and the Administration. He doesn’t know where we went wrong. We have assassinated Murtha’s character. We used to respect other opinions. We’ve hit bottom. (over time) WON’T SHUT UP. 30 seconds over.
Dana Rhorobacher (R-CA) Remember’s the insults against Reagan, and people calling Bush a liar. Calls Dems hypocrites. There is a disagreement about the war. Most of the talk from the Dem side has been nothing but rhetoric.
Steny Hoyer (D-MD): We are here to debate the war. We are here at the request of Mr. Murtha. We need to debate the war in Iraq. This deserves serious debate...but this isn’t what we are debating. (look at the last post..Just Desserts) We are not debating Murtha’s resolution. We are not being allowed to debate the war in Iraq, and this debate is beneath this body. We have all swore to protect and defend the COTUS. This resolution is an insult to our troops, who we all support. This is an insult to any other policy proposals that we should be looking. It is shaddy, petty, and it is underneath our responsibility. (YOU JUST GOT CAUGHT!!) This debate shows the lack of respect the Republicans have for the House. We should feel shame. We need to reject this.
Louie Ghomert (R-unknown state): We are so close to bringing democracy to Iraq. San Francisco says ‘no recruiters’ OVERTIME! SHUT IT!
Tom Osbourne (R-NEB): COACH!! We were united at the time of 9-11. We had a common purpose. What I see tonight makes me concerned. Plenty of blame for everyone. I am concerned about what the troops and the people perceive.
Jack Kingston: (R-GA): Al Jazeera said that Murtha called for immediate withdrawal. That is the reality that our troops have and hear. CO 3rd ID says that leaving now would be a disaster.
Jeff Fortenberry (R-NA): Described dead in his district. One of their mother’s thanked him and the Congress for doing what they were doing. The troops understand what is at stake.
Last Democrat: Nancy Pelosi: As the proud rep of San Francisco. Mr. Murtha is not being treated with respect. The Republicans have stooped to a new low...even for them (WHAT A HATEFUL WOMAN!) This is another deception. It is a continuation of the deception. The troops deserve better. This is an insult to Murtha. (she is laughing at the applause) republicans call him a coward (who did that?) It is all a Republican attack. This is a blow to Bush’s failed Iraq policy. YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!! (she used that Jack Nicholson line) Join Murtha for saluting their troops. Thank him for his service and work.
She is NUTS.
Phil Gringrey (R-GA): This goes to our troops, wherever they are. Talk is cheap. Our words echo past the walls of this chamber. They hear our troops. The Democrats with to use those words to divide America.
Vote will occur now.
The Republicans have managed to move this resolution (the Hunter Resolution, which says that the House wants the troops to be pulled out of Iraq immediately) to the actual consideration stage....220-203, I believe. I’ll take any comments on the names of the Republicans that voted against floor debate.
Now, the debate on the actual resolution begins.....
9:29 PM: This vote that they are having now is simply to allow the resolution to be put to vote. Hence, the Democrats are voting as a bloc in opposition to the resolution, and the vast majority of the Republicans want this voted on.
A couple corrections.....Murtha said (on 11-17): “The U.S. cannot accomplish anything further in Iraq militarily. It is time to bring them home...” Note the link is from a Leftist blog. so, this IS a vote on what he said....is it time to bring them home?
9:39: Putting comments in the Polipundit thread on this topic. Looks like the resolution will go on for a vote. GOOD! I bet that Pelosi and the Left do something spastic...like all vote against it, or leave the House, or something.
C-Span just listed the names of the Republicans that voted against the resolutions. I couldn’t type them fast enough. If you all want to, punch in some commentary into the Comments.
9:49: There is a request for a voice vote...this is ging to take some time. 210-202. It passes! Now, the Dems will have to vote on the resolution. Will it happen now? There is another debate in the offing.....the first debate is getting pushed to the “extended comments” area.
9:55 pm: I have always liked Henry Hyde, and he is kicking butt with his opening statement, praising Murtha and reminding us that retreat would mean defeat. He reminds us of our retreats from Vietnam, Lebanon, and Somalia. The Islamofascists think we are going to retreat. We have to stay there (Iraq) until Iraq is ready to defeat Al-Qaeda. Hyde mentions Sam Johnson, another war hero, who agrees with the President.
9:58: More applause for Murtha, and Lantos is going to give him the reins. Again, the 7.8 second time comment, same as Chet Edwards. (Commentary from me)The Democrats are shunning this process because they do not want to be pinned down on being anti-war.
10:00 pm: Duncan Hunter made a good dissertation on what kind of message that we were sending. He leaves the mic to Curt Weldon, who makes a GREAT point about the troops still in Bosnia, and we haven’t made an ‘exit strategy’ there yet, have we? Why do we need it now? Now, he’s going into praise of Murtha....the Republicans are playing defense on this just a bit. OK..he’s a fine American, we get that. Murtha stood against Clinton defense cuts.
10:07 pm: Murtha is talking now. Telling the story about Carter...calls Carter “Not the most fun person to be with” HAH!! Good joke. He is reading his resolution as presented yesterday...he wants a draft?? He’s what the Dems voted against in 2004!! And, yeah, his resolution asks for troops to be removed immediately. He wants an ‘over the horizon’ force....wasn’t that what the period between 1991-2002 was defined by? And the Left was telling us that we were killing Iraqis? Now he is going on about people crying and telling Murtha that they want a policy. Now, its the war dead. Cheney insults Democrats, but the war dead aren’t Dems or republicans....they are Americans! Cheney insults our war dead by insulting Democrats! (What does that mean?) Our country is at risk. Continued military action in Iraq is not in the best interest of America. Our intelligence has failed, not the world’s intelligence, but ours. (and France, and Germany, and every friggin’ body else...) He is now talking about military benefits. Iraq is causing our troops to not be ready. Iraq has broken us. He doesn’t know what the threat is...what? We need to rebuild our army....why? (CLINTON) Our military has accomplished it’s mission, and done it’s duty. We captured Hussein. This resolution is to show our support for our troops. We need to do this politically. The troops are the primary targets of the enemy (no...the terrorists are attacking other Muslims...care to look at the numbers?) We need to tell Iraq that they are free from American Occupation(?) What?
10:24: Murtha is totally Vietnamized.....the enemy is the victim of our presence in Iraq. It is our fault that we are being attacked. We are done, even though Al-Qaeda has said that this is their battlefield, and that their goal is our withdrawal. There is a nonsense inherent in his commentary.
10:26: Bill Young (R-CA) is speaking now, about committment. We can win or lose. This isn’t about Murtha, but about winning or losing. We can’t negotiate with them...there is no political solution. (PERFECT). There is no place for playing political games on either side of the aisle. We need to send a strong signal to the troops and to the families of the troops. We are here to support them. Letting the soldiers win the War on Terror. Iraq is a major battlefield, and we are in it, and we must prevail.
10:31: Joel Hefley tried to close everything, but was told ‘No’. He wants us to leave as soon as we are done. He is saying that the people that say the Iraq war is a failure are giving comfort to the terrorists. There have been two elections in Iraq, and we are making enormous progress. We love the troops, and we are with you until the job is done.
10:35: Murtha doesn’t believe the good news. He has a letter from a wife of a soldier who disapproves of the war. The wife and the soldier are proud that Murtha is doing this. We have a responsibility to speak out when the war isn’t going well, and when it is going well. Murtha’s points are pretty still boiler-plate Dem talking points. He wants immediate withdrawal. He really doesn’t see the problems that will cause. I can’t see any understanding there.
10:39: Another letter. You feel for the parents, and Murtha, because I am getting the feeling that Murtha at least partially feels emotionally rightous about this. However, he is too steeped in what his party wants right now, and he is too emotional about the subject.
10:42: Steve Beyer is hitting a home run, comparing the liberation of Europe and the current mission against terrorism. We are a great nation, and we have a great cause in spreading freedom and liberty. We learned painful lessons in Vietnam....and Beyer says that the enemy sees this and understands this. The military is an extension of us, and they want us to have the resolve we expect them to have.
10:45: The HOUSE is going NUTS!!! Lantos is screeching about the resolution.....the Hunter resolution is not the same as the Murtha resolution. Of course, the debate is over the Hunter resolution.
10:48: Another letter via Murtha. He is claiming that he has a plan, and the POTUS does not. I thought the whole election/Constitution of Iraq/formation of the government in Iraq/thing was a plan.
10:50: The Republicans have been better at this in an analytical matter, and Murtha is probably better in the emotional part of it. Who doesn’t want the troops to come home? However, there is a definite difference in what the two sides want. Last two Republicans have been spot-on.
10:53: Murtha is going into more letters and stories from people that have had family injured and killed during the war. Now an emotional story....now, collection agencies. Bush has forgotten about the veterans? (that was just hinted at by Murtha) More stories about wounded and dead soldiers. This has little to do with the debate. This is another emotional appeal. If we were to cut and run now, because of our wounded, we would doom millions to death and misery, but Murtha doesn’t see that. He doesn’t. He just called our troops ‘the enemy’. VIETNAM. Murtha also told the story about him threatening to give a wounded soldier his own Purple Heart. Nice story, but a little self-ingratiating.
10:58: Sam Johnson is speaking on what happened to him in Vietnam when the US decided to pull out. The troops need our full support. They need our faith. They need it for success and morale. The Murtha statement from yesterday is front page news on Al Jazeera, as referenced before. We are winning...look at the people voting! The media doesn’t report those things, and we must stay the course. Our work is paying off. Hussein is gone, and 46 out of his 55 henchmen are dead or incarcerated. 200,000 Iraqi troops are serving at this time. Some here want to embolden the enemy by wanting us to cut and run. What would that do to Iraq?
Now he is going into a dissertation on what the terrorists want. We have to fight them over there, and that is what we doing. We need to support the troops, because in Vietnam, peaceniks and politicians cast aspersions and doubt on our troops. We need to support our troops as long as it takes to beat terrorism. Withdrawal is not an option.
Now it is time to vote. Recorded vote is now pending.
11:13: This is going to be crushed like a bug. Right now, the vote is 325-3 against. As in the Polipundit thread, Kos is not going to be happy about this. what happens to the whacko Left? It is clear that the real hard-Leftists are a very small part of the population, or that the Democrats are as flexible as Clinton in the 90’s...or as cowardly. They blast Bush, but don’t have a real plan for VICTORY. They have a plan to cut and run, but not one to win.
OK...bedtime for me. I’ll check in the morning for the final vote.